Never trust a programmer who says he knows C++
TweetI’ve been in an interviewing mindset for awhile and I’ve come to realize something important about C++ in particular. C++ is a “two peak” language. That is to say C++ is the only language I know of where two very different sets of programmers consider themselves well versed in the language. Let me show you in fake graph form:
Programmers (especially those coming from C) can very quickly get up to speed in C++ and feel quite proficient. These programmers will tell you that they know C++. They are lying. As a programmer continues in C++, he goes through this valley of frustration where he fully comes to terms with the full complexity of the language. The good news is that it’s really easy to tell the difference between C++ programmers pre- and post- valley (in an interview, in this case). Just mention that C++ is an extremely large and complex language, and the post-valley people will give you 127 different tiny frustrations they have with the language. The pre-valley people will say “Yea, I guess. I mean, it’s just C with classes.”.
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March 28th, 2010 at 9:38 pm
Ha, nice!
What are the points on the upswing on the right?
Maybe, “No template metaprogramming.” “No operator overloading.” “Nothing that generates an error message I can’t parse.” And then finally “Forget it, I’ll just code in assembler.
March 28th, 2010 at 10:41 pm
I read somewhere (and I forget where) that everyone only uses about 20% of C++, but the worst part is that everyone uses a different 20%. For myself, I try to stay near the C with classes point. Not that I willingly write C++, but schoolwork occasionally requires it.
March 29th, 2010 at 7:51 am
Erik Naggum:
“I believe C++ instills fear in programmers, fear that the interaction of some details causes unpredictable results. Its unmanageable complexity has spawned more fear-preventing tools than any other language, but the solution should have been to create and use a language that does not overload the whole goddamn human.”
“I may be biased, but I tend to find a much lower tendency among female programmers to be dishonest about their skills, and thus do not say they know C++ when they are smart enough to realize that that would be a lie for all but perhaps 5 people on this planet.”
“C++ is a language strongly optimized for liars and people who go by guesswork and ignorance.”
March 29th, 2010 at 8:20 am
I admit I’m sitting at the bottom of the graph right now. I was quite happy when I thought I realized C++ was just C with classes.
March 29th, 2010 at 10:33 am
I try to keep my C++ code as “C with classes”, but everybody has their own opinion what C++ features should be used. This usually creates situations, where people only know their version of C++.
So if someone says they know C++, I would ask them “which C++”?
March 29th, 2010 at 11:58 am
@Basu: I have read that before also. That is one of my favorite lines.
March 29th, 2010 at 12:23 pm
This is brilliant.
March 29th, 2010 at 12:29 pm
At the top of the curve on the right: “Let’s just use the C++ compiler to compile C99.”
March 29th, 2010 at 12:34 pm
Hahahah I said the same thing about virtual!
March 29th, 2010 at 12:55 pm
Heh. The top of the 2nd peak should be labeled: “Screw this, I’m going back to C”
March 29th, 2010 at 1:16 pm
I took one comp sci class in college and it was intro to programming in c++. The teacher was awful. I taught myself everything. So when I go looking for a job, I list C++ in my skill section. I look at my C++ code I wrote now, and I don’t even really know what the fuck is going on with it. In fact all I code in now is VB, C# and JavaScript. My point is that I’m so fucking sick of hearing about C++. It’s a million years old and difficult. Managed code FTW!
March 29th, 2010 at 1:25 pm
As someone who progressed through the whole curve years ago, I know exactly what you’re talking about. C++ itself bears a lot of responsibility simply because it’s so big and has so many gotchas. But a big part of the blame also goes to the C++ textbook writers, who for years – nay, decades – taught C++ from the “C with Classes” perspective. Thinking about C++ as “C with classes” leads to a lot of avoidable headaches for newbies. I think this is the reason Barbara Moo et. al. chose to write their “Accelerated C++” book explicitly as an introduction to the language “C++” – not as an incremental layering of new features on top of C.
March 29th, 2010 at 1:31 pm
@Christopher
I think that the upswing is when they realize they need to pick the 20% of C++ they know and as a team stick to using just that
March 29th, 2010 at 2:21 pm
Modern C++ is a totally safe language, the only issue is that sometimes you have to think up front about your design before you sit down and code. C++ gives you all the tools you need to develop safe and efficient code, you just need to use them.
March 29th, 2010 at 3:36 pm
I’ve written numerous C++ programs but I guess I don’t know C++ because I don’t know what the hell a virtual destructor is. Some of my programs are as big as 13000 lines.
March 29th, 2010 at 3:41 pm
C++… C with classes… reminds me of this quote.
“…what society overwhelmingly asks for is snake oil. Of course, the snake oil has the most impressive names —otherwise you would be selling nothing— like ‘Structured Analysis and Design’, ‘Software Engineering’, ‘Maturity Models’, ‘Management Information Systems’, ‘Integrated Project Support Environments’, ‘Object Orientation’…”
-Djikstra
http://userweb.cs.utexas.edu/users/EWD/transcriptions/EWD11xx/EWD1175.html
March 29th, 2010 at 3:42 pm
That valley is like two years in. If you gave up down there, you missed out, hard.
There is such a thing as climbing the wall remaining.
March 29th, 2010 at 4:03 pm
pfft
March 29th, 2010 at 4:29 pm
I willfully ignore some of C++’s features because they tend to be overly complicated and hard to debug. When there is a simpler way, even if it’s not as “elegant”, why not use it?
I’m at the top of the first curve, but I see the valley; I know it’s there and I’ve been there. I know there are some good things down there but also loads of bad things. I just choose not to go there and live happily in my ignorance… so far, so good
March 29th, 2010 at 4:55 pm
When I was in school as a computer engineer I took a fair amount of programming classes. When I first started C++ I had never even used C, but I had used Java. I actually thought C++ was like a more verbose version of Java. After a while, when I started doing things like OpenGL 3D graphics programming using C++ (using many provided libraries of course), I was ridiculously confused and absolutely amazed that my code would end up working at all, let alone doing more or less what I wanted it to do.
Since then I’ve shown people some of the cool things I did for that class, but I stopped saying I “know C++” long ago.
March 29th, 2010 at 5:11 pm
This was a nice piece to read after posting “Usability, the Soul of Python: An Introduction to Python Through the Eyes of Usability” at http://JonathansCorner.com/python/ (usability for programmers more than end users in this case).
I wonder if Guido van Rossum was informed by concerns like these and trying hard to learn from C++’s experience.
March 29th, 2010 at 6:35 pm
You forgot to label your x and y axes.
March 29th, 2010 at 7:07 pm
Thats old school now. Nobody cares about c++. C# or java is the way to go.
Here is an analogy. If I can order a triple cheese burger with extra large fries and an extra large soda and put on all the fat in my body just cos I can, why cant I use all global variables and never think of cleaning up resources, create all the memory I need on the heap and let somebody else(GC) collect the garbage.
If my program runs slow, tell the management to buy new computers with larger memory and a better processor, its good for the economy too.
March 29th, 2010 at 7:07 pm
Managed code FTW!
Hooray for Java! That will solve all our problems!
No, wait? “Managed code” is not a silver bullet after all, and “managed” languages can still have their own little flaws? Oh dear.
March 29th, 2010 at 7:40 pm
Gss: my current understanding is that a virtual destructor is what you need if:
1) one of your classes ever has subclasses
2) An instance of your subclass ever gets deleted through a base class type reference. (i.e. MyClass *var = new MySubClass; delete var)
3) Any subclass that might ever be created needs to have its destructor called (e.g. perhaps to deallocate something)
In other words, you need a virtual destructor for any class that is actually going to participate in a class hierarchy, as opposed to simply being a fancy holder for some C code.
March 29th, 2010 at 8:05 pm
thanks for spamming a link to your blog jonathan
March 29th, 2010 at 8:08 pm
incidentally, jonathan, the code on page one of your spam link is broken and will never terminate — at least until the integer overflows.
proofread your drek before you spam it please
March 29th, 2010 at 8:15 pm
You left out:
(*)Koenig Lookups
(*)SFINAE
(*)The fact that functions can’t have partial template specializations
(*)Weird template name rules that depends on access specifiers.
(*)The reason behind all the type traits boilerplate in the standard libraries.
And a load of other weirdness. I learned the stuff in your graph in the first two year of C++. I can assure you the “we need some rules” comes way to early in the graph. I’ve used C++ for eight years, and I feel more clueless than when I started.
March 29th, 2010 at 8:21 pm
A lot of the top of the first peak people come from Java, rather than C, writing settors and gettors for every ^%$# thing.
March 29th, 2010 at 8:51 pm
too true
March 29th, 2010 at 11:02 pm
Easy solution – just don’t learn C++. When confronted with having to learn an object oreinted language, I chose Java. I also dabble with Ruby and Python for various reasons.
I stay as far away from C++ as possible. If I’m asked, I tell people because it’s old school and there are cooler languages out there. In reality, I hear too many of my friends complaining about the complexities of the language, so I’ve stayed away from it.
I’m a web developer, so I don’t really NEED to know an OOL, but it’s helped me get a few gigs, and what I do use, is pretty limited. I gotta believe if my friends were using it back in the 90′s, it must be worth something – right?
March 30th, 2010 at 12:26 am
Spot on. And for all of you “managed code ftw” folks, there’s an n-peak curve for you too.. guess which peak you’re on?
March 30th, 2010 at 12:48 am
C++ makes a good programmer better, and a bad programmer obvious.
March 30th, 2010 at 1:14 am
Can anyone suggest a good C++ textbook, for people trying to move from C to C++ ?( Not the kinda book, which says C++ is just C with Classes)
March 30th, 2010 at 1:19 am
Does anyone really _know_anything, anyway?
March 30th, 2010 at 2:03 am
@Larry: bravo!
March 30th, 2010 at 5:11 am
In my 2c
March 30th, 2010 at 5:35 am
There is a kind of symmetry to the incremental teaching of C++, from “C with classes” to the whole “modern C++”: it was invented that way and inflicted upon the world that way. Consequently C++ exists in all its “intermediate forms” in the wild. C++ apologists tend to not want to talk about what this really means.
As an experimental language it did have some value; in much the same manner that experiments with eating the wrong sort of mushroom has value — unless you are the test-subject. You learn what not to ingest. This frankensteinian mishmash should have stayed in the lab. Unfortunately, at the time this pathogen seeped under the door and out into the world, it was just too tempting to make use of it. It offered familiarity and performance.
We have better computers now. We also have a much broader palette of good languages that can more clearly express intent. We have also become slightly better at building systems that make use of several languages to allow us to solve problems with languages that are better suited for the problem domain at hand.
The generation of programmers that matured in the 00s are both more fortunate and far more aware of the rich fauna of programming languages and more pragmatic approaches than the generations that matured in the decades before. It is not uncommon to encounter developers who are proficient in at least half a dozen languages and who have some knowledge of at least a dozen or so proper programming languages.
Most proponents of “modern C++” are, I’m afraid, still on the wrong side of the valley. Much of what is claimed about how it is perfectly possible to write clear, performant and simple C++ does not take into account that while this may be true for smaller systems that have been implemented from scratch, it is somewhere between myth and fiction in the harsh reality of systems with legacy code or even modest integration requirements.
With C++ things invariably get ugly. Very ugly.
I have yet to meet a “C++ purist” who can look me in the eye and tell me that he or she has not had to resort compromise his or her code as wishful thinking gets its nose bloodied on harsh reality. I have met plenty of people who consider themselves competent C++ hackers who are, at best the software engineering equivalent of drunk drivers.
March 30th, 2010 at 6:34 am
Knowing what today is in Frequently Questioned Answers (http://yosefk.com/c++fqa/) would friends let friends program in C++?
Personally, I would hesitate to consider a job including C++ programming (because of the code base that I might inherit), so my interview answer to “Do you know C++?” might be, “No. Not really.”
However, in the light of C++0x one might be taking a second look.
March 30th, 2010 at 7:34 am
In my opinion, this “2 hills” mentality is found in every language. Certainly perl, java and php have these people. They “know the language” and then you give them a database schema that uses -gasp- inheritance …
2 weeks later they quit. Crying.
I don’t think this issue is related to the language as asking “knowledgeable programmers” to code actually complicated features tends to produce this result. I’ve even known this to happen to system engineers and network engineers alike.
There are 2 type
March 30th, 2010 at 9:12 am
What’s so hard to understand about a virtual destructor?
March 30th, 2010 at 10:39 am
“Ignorance is bliss”.
The C with Classes point is the epitome of that saying, and almost everyone goes through it.
BTW, kudos for saying “he” instead of “they” in the title — you not only know C++, but also good English grammar
March 30th, 2010 at 12:31 pm
I consider myself to be a C++ expert. Before reading this blog, I thought you are going to convince me that I am not. Reading the blog and the comments however reconfirms what I knew!
March 30th, 2010 at 2:11 pm
Does C++ take time to learn? Sure! Does that mean it is a mystery to all but 5 people on the planet? NO!
The only way to learn C++ is to NOT assume it is all some enigma wrapped in a paradox and realize that it does what (most) languages do, allow someone to write syntax that gets compiled into machine instructions. Figure out what everything is doing behind the hood and only then will you understand C++. If you’re curious as to what is going on, look at the disassembled code. From there, you will know C++, no matter the syntactical and behavioral differences between compilers.
March 30th, 2010 at 4:36 pm
This was good. I had the great luxury of learning C++ from Dr. Stroustrup, and I have now been programming in C++ for just a bit over 20 years. I have also punished others by teaching it to them at the university level, and having various people work for me over the years.
Given the comments above, it must be the case that anything that can be said about C++ must be true, or will become true at some point in the future.
I was surprised that no one mentioned the number of problems that can be found with the g++ compiler set to warn about everything under the sun. As a precaution against our own shortcomings as programmers, we get all our code to compile cleanly with these options before release:
export DGIOPTS=” -Wfatal-errors -Wswitch-default -Wswitch-enum -Wunused-parameter -Wfloat-equal -Wundef -Wstrict-null-sentinel -std=c++0x -pedantic -Wall -Wextra ”
and we test the code on 32 bit and 64 bit OS, and even big and small endian processors. Are we alone?
I will admit it doesn’t find static initializers, but it has found a number of problems over the years.
March 30th, 2010 at 5:45 pm
Java isnt an application programming language, its your way back at that stupid machine which wont run your stupid ported c++ application as well as it ran in it in it’s original c version
hahah
March 30th, 2010 at 6:37 pm
Looks like the whole world is waking up from C++. So I am not special after all. Oh, wait, I am still one of the few that went back to C89.
March 30th, 2010 at 11:41 pm
what is wtf?
March 31st, 2010 at 2:17 am
Windows Programming is in fact System Programming. Without going through the C++ valley, you’ll be stumped by the mysterious COM Interops handed to you by your boss.
March 31st, 2010 at 2:55 am
If you want some evidence that managed languages have a similar curve, my own latest blog entry is highly relevant:
http://www.levelofindirection.com/journal/2010/3/5/the-80s-called-they-want-their-memory-manager-back.html
Overall, though, while I agree that most software development problems are best solved with other languages these days, there are still some strong cases for using C++ (especially in HPC environments – which is where I am working now).
I went through a bit of a personal career direction crisis back around 2001 when I realised that C++ was reaching a tipping point in terms of mainstream relevance. Initially I decided to move into embedded programming – but the vast majority of people I encountered there *never* get past the “C with classes” level. That may not be a bad thing – but was not what I was looking for. So then I went the other way and embraced C#. I’m glad I did. It’s a great language (as of 2.0 – 1.x was a bit too much like Java for me) that is still getting better. Now, even though I’m currently back doing mostly C++ (and Objective-C for my iPhone and iPad development – see http://www.vconqr.com) I feel like I am doing it for the right reasons – knowing what the alternatives are and when to use them (I’ve also done Javam, Python, Perl, even a bit of Ruby and Scala).
That said, I think the future of systems programming and HPC is more likely to be with D, although I’m looking forward to C++11
March 31st, 2010 at 3:02 am
No, Javam is not a new JVM language – except in the sense that it’s Java with a typo
March 31st, 2010 at 1:29 pm
MS C++ + MFC + ATL = the unholy trinity.
MS C++ programmers often eagerly move on to MFC and ATL (in whatever order). They think it’s more sophisticated and cool and they can explain to their bosses that code will be more resuseable etc. (one would think that people would have wise up by now).
Except most of the time what they produce are convoluted monuments to their egos.
Fortunately C++ is mostly of importance in legacy code. Is anyone starting new, large projects in C++? (the above would seem indicate that, sometimes, yes).
Come to think of it, when I built a copy of Firefox I seem to remember seeing a good amount of .cpp files.
ATL and MFC are Microsoft’s C++ world of course. The very need for ATL (templates) tells you that genericity should have been built into the language in the first place. A considerable shortcoming. Although the creation of C++ was probably too early to even see the need for genericity. What does one do for genericity (or templates) with C++ on Unix/Linux – I imagine there’s some kind of framework?
> There are 2 type
I assume you mean: “there are two types of people”. Yes, there are the people who believe that there are two types – and there are those who don’t.
March 31st, 2010 at 2:59 pm
@Bjørn Borud:
“With C++ things invariably get ugly. Very ugly.
I have yet to meet a “C++ purist” who can look me in the eye and tell me that he or she has not had to resort compromise his or her code as wishful thinking gets its nose bloodied on harsh reality. I have met plenty of people who consider themselves competent C++ hackers who are, at best the software engineering equivalent of drunk drivers.”
with every programming language you will end up making comprimises, this argument is not limited to C++ but ALL programming languages.
C++ is very powerful and when used properly it is a lot nicer to code with than the languaes I’ve coded with (c, c#, java, f#, vb, and basic).
when you truely start getting good at C++ and start to master the language, you figure out that theres many tricks you can do to get-your-way and code your ideas. its this versatility that makes the language so powerful and fun!
April 2nd, 2010 at 7:35 am
“I’ve written numerous C++ programs but I guess I don’t know C++ because I don’t know what the hell a virtual destructor is. Some of my programs are as big as 13000 lines.”
Correct. You don’t know C++. This is not a problem at all: some very important programs do not require virtual destructors nor more than 13000 lines. Others require millions of lines, intensive metaprogramming and advanced coding techniques. These are two different worlds that coexist nicely (think of web programming and web infrastructure). The blog author simply points out that very fact.
April 2nd, 2010 at 8:18 am
@menomnon
“The very need for ATL (templates) tells you that genericity should have been built into the language in the first place. A considerable shortcoming”
C++ has very strong support for generic programming with an advanced template system – arguably the most advanced in any language (possibly excepting D – and if you don’t include Lisp macros, for example)! It is certainly more powerful than C# or Java generics (although also more complex).
C++ template support is so advanced that it was discovered (rather than designed that way) that the template system could be used as a Turing-complete metalanguage in itself. That’s not to say that you always should
ATL is simply Microsoft’s library of templates (and still some macros, sadly) to wrap COM and some of the Windows API (more templated Windows support was in the never-quite-fully-supported WTL). While showing its age too now, ATL was actually pretty good (much nicer than MFC), and still in common use today in projects that need COM support from C++ code.
April 2nd, 2010 at 11:05 am
C++ is a 5-kg sledgehammer that programmers get beaten around the head with; almost anything that will get that to stop banging you is an improvement.
On the other hand, C++ (and several other languages) exist precisely because C is not the magical hammer that turns every problem into a nail; after several years programming in different “sane” OO languages, working in C is almost as painful as working in C++.
But if I hadn’t had a couple of decades of C++ experience under my belt, I doubt I could have truly appreciated Objective-C quite so much as I do. I’m easily an order of magnitude more productive in Objective-C (~2 years experience now) than in C (which I’ve developed in from ’79 to present). Other recently-useful languages have included C# (in both the .NET and Mono ecosystems), D (see http://www.digitalmars.com/d/ for a treat) and even the “old chestnuts” Eiffel and Ada 2005. For Web development, I use PHP and Python. Each of these “other” languages lets me be more productive, writing software faster that has fewer defects and is much more readable and maintainable, than with EITHER C++ or C.
Having the “most advanced language on the planet” is absolutely USELESS if the average, journeyman programmer cannot make effective use of that power, or if it is uneconomical to develop effective, usable, maintainable systems.
I’m told that a common reaction to certain controlled substances (such as alcohol and other drugs) is a feeling of euphoric omnipotence; the (utterly) false belief that the user is somehow more capable of demanding tasks than when s/he is not so influenced. At this point, my firm professional opinion is that C++ as it is commonly (mis)used is more akin to crack cocaine than caffeine… which does have a useful effect.
Just say “no.”
April 2nd, 2010 at 7:46 pm
I must admit that I didn’t make it to the bottom. However, I seemed to be bent toward C when I got on the C++ coaster. Incidentally, I had essentially made the jump to C when I got to the Exceptions. My thinking was that if something can go wrong, returning error codes is preferable to forcibly making a subroutine (to use the technical term) return an error when something goes wrong.
BTW, am I wrong in thinking that “static object initialization segfaults” is a problem with the g++ compiler more than a problem that’s built into the language?
April 3rd, 2010 at 3:02 am
I fact the point is “we need some rules”. As a techer I always tell students that if you want to master C++ you need to understand first what OOP is, and how important it is. When you understand fundamentals about this, then you will be able to master any syntax-tricky feature of C++. For example, it may seems weird to use virtual destructor or things like that, but if you understand what polymorphism is, then it is obvious to need something like virtual destructor and is it also obvious that this feature would have been the default behaviour! It is well known that many features are really mistakes, but everything is possible in C++ if you forget the syntax!
April 3rd, 2010 at 4:01 am
If you want to learn C++ as a new language the right way, you can just buy this book:
http://www.amazon.com/Programming-Principles-Practice-Using-C/dp/0321543726/
Programming: Principles and Practice Using C++ by Bjarne Stroustrup, yes the language creator.
It’s a bit sad to see the comments here, as if you don’t use exception, you don’t really use the basic C++ concept, the destructor, to its full extent. But well, if you don’t grasp the idea behind the language, I guess it’s not use explaining it.
April 3rd, 2010 at 4:23 am
@cotton: the problem is that C++ is a multiparadigmatic language and to stay “clean” there are certain things you are not supposed to mix. This is all well and good in theory and on trivial projects, but on large projects where you need to deal with legacy code or integration of components from different traditions of C++, you usually have to accept that the result ends up being a messy patchwork, and that your standards for “cleanliness” have to be sacrificed at times.
It doesn’t help you to have strict coding standards when necessity dictates that you break them. And more than any other language this is, in *my* experience, more true for C++ than for any other language I have used.
April 3rd, 2010 at 4:54 am
“We have better computers now”
“Nobody cares about c++”
“If my program runs slow, tell the management to buy new computers with larger memory and a better processor”
It may be true for web or CRUD applications, but not everyone is doing only this. The banks use C++ a lot. “Buy new computers” mantra won’t work there, because they are already using the best computers money can buy, or even construct their own supercomputers on par with the Top500 machines (I talked to a guy from one of the major US investment banks who did just that). They go for C++ to cut down the time of their pricing or risk scenario testing as much as possible, without paying enormous bills for energy and air conditioning. The same derivative pricing model implemented in C++ can be an order of magnitude faster than in Java.
April 3rd, 2010 at 11:24 am
In general, the fact that you need to resort to “tricks” to get things done and that it takes at least a 3-4 years (if you are really good) to become close to competent in C++, is a problem.
Many of the in-house libraries of various companies I’ve worked for are full of these clever little “tricks” that need to be learned and then applied consistently. Forget to pay attention to them in just one place and you might find yourself in a world of misery. Tricks to avoid memory leaks, tricks to make up for the fact that C++ has no idea of concurrency etc.
“Tricks” are a symptom.
I think it is very telling that C++ has not graduated to the level of maturity where its standard library evolves beyond the basics (interfacing with the OS in a suitably abstracted way, having workable containers that trivially lend themselves to extension etc).
Languages like Java are much maligned by some categories of C++ hackers, but it should be a hint that while C++ still has not graduated from trying to figure out the basics, Java now has a _standard_ library that encompasses many things from pure basics such as container types, via rich IO abstractions, concurrency abstractions, interfacing with other languages, monitoring and diagnostics, and eventually, module systems etc. Sure, one can agree or disagree on the design of these, but the fact remains that C++ is still struggling to just cope with the basics.
And C++ is much older than Java. It should be the other way around.
For the most part you can substitute most modern languages for “Java” in the above paragraphs, and the statements will still hold true.
I think this makes C++ a specialist language that you resort to when the problem you need to solve forces you to use it. When you can afford to put in the extra work to do all the fancy footwork because there are constraints that are much more important than cost of development and maintainance.
I used to work for various search engine companies. A search kernel for a large scale search engine is typically one such application where C++ makes some sense because search technology is extremely sensitive to variance in latency.
(I’ve written a key part of a search engine in Java. Believe me, it wasn’t trivial to make the GC play nice. It took months to get any sort of consistent and predictable performance out of it and some sacrifices had to be made.)
If you do things at a massive scale, being able to make use of every last CPU cycle and byte of memory will show up in your cap-ex. You can afford the extra work involved in writing it in C++.
Sadly I have seen auxiliary systems for search engines being written in C++ — systems that have a higher emphasis on correctness, robustness and throughput than low variance latency.
This is not where you want to use C++ if you can avoid it. In particular if there is any chance that you need to model complex systems and that inexperienced developers will be tasked with maintaining it.
April 3rd, 2010 at 11:57 am
@Roman: I don’t buy general assertions that language X is faster than language Y. The reason is that for the most part computations are hampered by bad design, incomplete understanding of the problem domain on a fundamental level and poor choice of strategies and algorithms.
These problems are extremely common in some industries and less common in others.
I’ve worked in very diverse industries (oil, banking, computer security, web scale search engines, telco) and most performance problems are introduced long before the implementation language is even an issue. By way of bad design choices.
Not too long ago I had a look at a computation problem that was solved in a “state of the art” manner — that is: in their field, this is a perfectly good way to solve a particular problem.
What we found was that if you looked at the fundamental problem they were solving, it was entirely possible to do what they did in tens of minutes rather than several days. Regardless of implementation language. At a fraction of the cost.
The problem wasn’t so much their choice of language or tools, but the fact that they had next to no understanding of the computational complexity of the problem they were solving. If they had posessed this insight they would have asked themselves why the “industry strength solution” failed to extract even a fraction of the theoretical performance from the hardware they were using.
I see this a lot. In fact I see it so often that I would wager that at least 3 large projects I’ve looked at in the past 6 months will think I am talking about their architecture in the above paragraph.
April 4th, 2010 at 4:57 am
@Bjorn
“Java now has a _standard_ library that encompasses many things from pure basics such as container types, via rich IO abstractions, concurrency abstractions, interfacing with other languages, monitoring and diagnostics”
I know this. Most of the code I wrote for a living was in Java. I also know the deficiencies of Java standard library, e.g. the API inconsistencies: arrays have .length, collections have .size(), string has .length()… Interfacing with other languages — yes, you can use JNI, but you don’t want to unless you really must. I agree about monitoring and diagnostics, this is something Java excels at.
“Sadly I have seen auxiliary systems for search engines being written in C++”
AFAIR banks often use the formula: “core engine in C++, infrastructure in Java or C#”. My point was not to claim that C++ is a cure for all ills, but to state that it is not obsolete yet.
“I’ve worked in very diverse industries (oil, banking, computer security, web scale search engines, telco) and most performance problems are introduced long before the implementation language is even an issue. By way of bad design choices.”
Yeah, it is easy to feel smug and say “Java too slow for ya? you must suck at designing code”. But for some reason, I have yet to see a Java desktop app to be as responsive as a native Windows app, written in C++.
April 5th, 2010 at 9:09 am
@roman: one can debate the qualitative properties of the Java standard library until the cows come home. I don’t think it is a very controversial stance that the standard APIs and libraries have issues. They key difference between C++ and Java is that C++ lacks the standardization of higher order functionality; it is still stuck trying to agree on the rudimentary parts — all while being hampered by the fact that there is an enormous amount of work that has gone into mitigating this problem.
I’ve spent most of my time writing server-side code or system code, though some of this code has been extremely latency sensitive, so I am not completely unfamiliar with the issue of response time.
I’d like to bring up two applications that challenge your view that Java is slow and that C/C++/Objective-C is necessarily better for GUI apps. (Though I’ll grant you that any runtime environment such as the JVM will have more startup overhead and more resource overhead than apps that are compiled down to static binaries).
On one hand you have the IDEs that are written in Java such as Eclipse and IntelliJ. Now, you would be right to point out that Eclipse is essentially a piece of rubbish( hard to customize properly, lots of really badly written plugins that just creates more work etc), but its interactive performance is completely acceptable.
On the other hand you have apps such as Apple’s iTunes, which is a textbook example of sensationally poor software engineering. It is nothing short of astounding how badly iTunes is designed with regard to concurrency. The last time I saw a GUI app that would block the UI this often was when a friend of mine, who had no idea what he was doing, kept performing long-running tasks in the GUI thread — leading to the app “blocking” most of the time.
…and iTunes is written in Objective-C.
The problem with iTunes is not the language. The problem is that it is implemented and maintained by people who do not have the adequate understanding of concurrent programming and thus fail because they are unable to structure the problem.
April 5th, 2010 at 4:52 pm
@Bjorn
“I’d like to bring up two applications that challenge your view that Java is slow ”
I’m not saying Java is slow. I earn my living writing Java numerical code (financial pricing model). I’m saying that C++ can be maxed out to higher performance than Java can. If you are an organization which can draw huge monetary benefits from increased performance (such as a bank which profits from being able to run 2x as many risk scenarios in a given period of time), you will swallow the cost of more tedious development and maintenance gladly. Also, C++ can be written in such a way to prevent memory leaks (which are entirely possible in Java, as we both know).
“On one hand you have the IDEs that are written in Java such as Eclipse and IntelliJ.”
I know both of them. Eclipse has good performance only when your project is small, it becomes sluggish on projects with 1E5 lines of code or more (even if you don’t actually open all the files…). Maybe it is because Java IDEs try to do more than C++ IDEs (more advanced refactoring). Generally the tools for Java development offer more than for C++, I agree.
“On the other hand you have apps such as Apple’s iTunes”
If you’re talking about Windows iTunes, I think Apple is deliberately keeping it this way.
April 6th, 2010 at 4:00 pm
I like c++ as a language. The language supports multiple programming paradigms and leaves the choise to the programmer. I believe the problem arises when the program contains a mix of paradigms without understanding the differences and purposes of each.
When you write a bad essay in english, it is not the problem with the language rather it is the author’s responsibility to use the language properly. The same applies to programming languages as well.
April 6th, 2010 at 5:04 pm
@anand
When you write numerical code which uses a modern C++ library for linear algebra, like uBlas or Eigen, you by necessity write template code (not just call it, but write it yourself — templates are viral). On the other hand, if your program is going to handle some kind of a more business-world logic, you will want to use OOP. How do you solve this problem? Foreswear OOP or stick to old-style BLAS?
April 13th, 2010 at 2:06 am
The level of ignorance and sheer stupidity in this discussion is staggering. What are you talking about ? I guess the last time you saw some C++ code was circa 1989-1997. Before the STL, before the standardization, before Boost or even Qt.
“C++ still has not graduated from trying to figure out the basics, Java now has a _standard_ library that encompasses many things from pure basics such as container types, via rich IO abstractions, concurrency abstractions, interfacing with other languages, monitoring and diagnostics, and eventually, module systems etc.”
That’s just laughable. Just look up Boost and you’ll laugh too.
April 20th, 2010 at 7:33 am
Hello Louis,
I agree with you a little. C++ is a complex language, but not difficult to learn if you have experience with C. Most problems comes from the understanding pointers and abstractions like templates and virtual methods. But with a little time practicing programming with C++, with the proper previous knowledge of C it can be easily handled.
Best Regards
Daniel
April 29th, 2010 at 5:08 am
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May 12th, 2010 at 10:05 am
I code in C++, and it feels good, problem with that? I’m not saying that I know the whole language fully up to the every single last library. If I need todo anything (game, software, little console app), and if I run into a problem, I’m dealing with it like a programmer should, getting the documentations out and dealing with it, unlike some people here who would rather be a wussy and go “this language is too complex for me”.
I will not pick up any other languages other than C++ or C# at this point because if you will give me any language, i will tell you at least 5 major problems with it and why it is better to use C++ in any context. It is complex, but in my opinion “programmer” stands for intelligent person that can implement complex software which use complex language and it doesnt mean scriptkiddy. U mad?
Thanks for your attention.
May 12th, 2010 at 10:16 am
The only reason people aren’t learning C++ lately is because they are all badly taught and they have no interest in the subject what-so-ever.
OH NOES NO GARBAGE COLELCTION? I HAVE TO WATCH WHAT IM PROGGING OR MY CODE WILL BREAK OR LEAK. – This is a typical mentality of a java app developer. The solid reason of java, is to allow people who inheritly bad at programming, stay bad at programming and allow for bad and slow software to be released. Just look at the Oracle developer tools, they are horrid. Memory issues, random delays for no reason on simple things like redrawing UI. Why? Because language like java are there to allow every monkey to play IMMA PROGRAMMER game. Its pathetic.
Im not saying im an amasing programmer, im not even saying im a good programmer, no im bad, im very bad actually. But its C++ and its tendency to throw up your bad practices that forces me to revise and improve myself. Not stupid handicapped languages and routines.
Thanks, another angry anon out.
May 23rd, 2010 at 11:09 am
What I’ve noticed after 20 years of C++ programming is the following:
C++ is not easy, but it is the language of speed. It’s a compromise over C, and clearly over assembly, or machine language…lol.
C++ also can make for some interesting errors, especially multithreaded C++.
Now for the bad…..
No C++ programmer retires…they die early in their 50′s, or earlier.
Likely due to sitting in a chair for 12 or 18 hours a day, and working 7 days a week, or 24 hour after-hours support, etc. In short, this is likely the worst of all career directions to go.
What I’ve noticed in the quest to offshore and get cheaper C++ programmers is the following: Offshoring decreases the control. Code Theft, attempted client theft rise. Culture clashs are interesting (Israel citizens can say things that would get you fired in the USA). Israel programmers often stole the code, and tried to steal the customers (lol). Foreign courts are not likely to side with a foreign company, over a native.
Quality goes down.
Irronically, I’ve also been an off-shore-off-shore employee, and the finaly client likely got double or tripple billed for my time (lol). They were likely clueless.
India has gone along way to solving alot of these problems (timezone, language, etc), but even there, it’s difficult to find any more quality C++ programmers.
ug….it’s an interesting career, but deadly.
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C++ is a fine language. The biggest problem people have with it is that they use it in completely inappropriate places.
It’s really funny working through the comments here. On one side you have the C-philes who can’t imaging learning how to organize their software beforehand. On the other side you have the managed-code fanatics who can’t imagine doing systems programming, ever. (and no… Java on a cell phone is not systems programming, just because it’s technically ‘embedded’)
With that said, in an ideal world C++ would stay exclusively in the realm of operating systems, controller and driver code. It “can” do anything, but in 2010, there are better languages for most things.
A largish exception is full-featured interface libraries. The fact that everything in the world has been done in C and C++ means that every half-decent application language can use C and C++ libs… which means you have a much broader audience if you write your lib in one of those two.
November 13th, 2010 at 9:26 pm
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E’ stato nei giorni scorsi il ministro del Welfare Maurizio Sacconi a lanciare l’allarme: nel nostro Paese esisterebbe un concreto pericolo di ritorno al terrorismo, a quegli anni bui che fecero precipitare l’Italia dentro un clima permanente di tragedia.
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March 13th, 2012 at 8:15 am
With the strategic importance of energy is electricity production from unconventional sources such as: solar, wind, biogas, biomass. смяна на щрангове
March 14th, 2012 at 7:15 am
Encouraged to involve the private voluntary organizations in the construction of technical universities, to be self financing and thus to extend the system of technical education. вик ремонти
March 20th, 2012 at 8:38 am
in the state are well represented various sectors of industrial production. Plants producing cars in there and Muzafarpur Mokamah. бойлер
March 28th, 2012 at 5:23 am
There are three airports: Indira Gandhi International Airport, airport Palamas, serving national flights and the third airport serving cargo flights. мобилни климатици
April 16th, 2012 at 12:37 am
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April 17th, 2012 at 8:09 am
K-glass turns sunlight into heat, therefore not recommended for rooms with southern location because summer is reaching κλιματιστικά very high temperatures in bright light and prolonged, as is typical of these areas.
May 16th, 2012 at 4:51 am
To preserve the confidentiality of company secrets and proliferation of дограма information related to the labor ремонт на автоклиматици process and the guests.